tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post3286089269074384068..comments2023-11-03T05:49:10.841-04:00Comments on Storytelling Rules: More on why I'm loving urban fantasy right nowMaureen McGowanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00494408580378817045noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-23180574700685391102008-03-21T13:54:00.000-04:002008-03-21T13:54:00.000-04:00Kristin,I think in the best books, plot comes out ...Kristin,<BR/><BR/>I think in the best books, plot comes out of character. You can't have one without the other. I've heard this lots of times, but don't always remember it. People talk about character driven vs plot driven books... and I guess I do believe there is a distinction, but it's not like a black and white thing. <BR/><BR/>But I think great romances, particularly the ones without suspense or fantasy or other elements, need GREAT characters. Books in all genres can be made stronger with amazing characters, but in contemporary romance, the books RELY on them.<BR/><BR/>Maybe that's what my frustration is... For me, so many romances play it safe with their characters, not wanting to offend or have the heroine in particular do anything unsympathetic... As a result, so many of the books just come off bland to me at best, and silly at worst. But obviously not to other readers, given the popularity of the genre.Maureen McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00494408580378817045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-18898653331101814182008-03-20T19:27:00.000-04:002008-03-20T19:27:00.000-04:00Wow, Maureen, thanks for the compliment. Sometimes...Wow, Maureen, thanks for the compliment. Sometimes I worry that I don't make a heck of a lot of sense when I'm trying to express myself on a blog. <BR/><BR/>I'm a sucker for good characters. The plot could be entirely ho-hum, but if the characters are great, I don't care as much about the originality of plot.<BR/><BR/>A book that suffered b/c of lack of character development: The DaVinci Code. I wanted to like that book so much...but because the characters were so cardboard, I focused way too much on the weakness in the plot. Oh dear!<BR/><BR/>I wanted to learn more about why this guy was a cryptology expert and what his background was, but there was just nothing.<BR/><BR/>So the office taboo romance would work for me, if the characters were real and honest and believable.K J Gillenwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12023089365553324315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-40757281146697985052008-03-20T14:21:00.000-04:002008-03-20T14:21:00.000-04:00Kristin, I totally agree and wish that's what I'd ...Kristin, I totally agree and wish that's what I'd said **grin**. It's not the plots it's the characters and characterizations. Really great romantic conflict comes from character, so if the characters aren't fully formed, neither is the romantic conflict. And in a pure contemporary romance, the romantic conflict IS the backbone of the plot.<BR/><BR/>Molly, Lucia Macro is where she is in the industry because she's smart. Very smart. I think that says, much better, what I was trying to say. The conflicts are too small for the size of the book.<BR/><BR/>I obviously hadn't thought this through long and hard enough before posting... I didn't really mean it to be so controversial. Oh, well.<BR/><BR/>Obviously falling in love is still fraught with challenges in the modern world -- maybe harder than ever -- but putting that on the page in a believable way and in enough depth to support a full length novel. Hard.<BR/><BR/>Kimber... I hate to say this, (especially since I know you were being a little flip) but for me the "co-workers can't date conflict" is an example of the kind of thing that makes me crazy when writers try to use that as the main conflict in a book. It's a barrier easily solved. In fact, there are now rules and contracts and formal ways to resolve the issue. Don't get me wrong, I do think it can be a valid conflict to place between a hero and heroine, but certainly not enough, IMO, to carry the plot of a single title romance.<BR/><BR/>About world building... All great books have some element of world building, even if it's a modern North American setting. But I'm sure you're right that we all have our own limits on how much of it we like in our stories. I'm not big on full-on fantasy books, for example. <BR/><BR/>The reason I've recently fallen in love with urban fantasy is that 90% of the "world" is familiar -- but that 10% can be so dang cool.Maureen McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00494408580378817045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-75255806502445144062008-03-20T10:49:00.000-04:002008-03-20T10:49:00.000-04:00But back to urban fantasy...It isn't my cup of tea...But back to urban fantasy...<BR/><BR/>It isn't my cup of tea.<BR/>I'm a very lazy reader.<BR/>I read romance for the relationships<BR/>and I have too few brain cells left at the end of the day to handle world building.<BR/><BR/>My best bud, however, loves this stuff.<BR/>I ask her for the executive summary on the books she's read so I don't sound so ignorant.Kimber Chinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13658012405712901099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-71280739531512491612008-03-20T10:36:00.000-04:002008-03-20T10:36:00.000-04:00Dang, when will I learn to post under the right us...Dang, when will I learn to post under the right username??<BR/><BR/>I was that mysterious admin poster.<BR/><BR/>Aaaaggggghhhhh!Kimber Chinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13658012405712901099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-261352009627831022008-03-20T10:34:00.000-04:002008-03-20T10:34:00.000-04:00Actually if you talk a lot to the under 20 crowd, ...Actually if you talk a lot to the under 20 crowd, I think there are some serious issues preventing a "talk it out and fix all problems" solution.<BR/><BR/>Many come from broken homes. Many don't believe relationships can last. Many have heard parents say "everything is fine" up to the day they announce they're separating. There is a lack of trust. They don't believe.<BR/><BR/>So in that envirnment, creating a forever and ever couple is challenging.<BR/><BR/>'Course in business, I also get to use the "we're co-workers, we can't date" taboo. (Grinning) That's a bit of a cheat.Adminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08210540426416933098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-26920789343713649822008-03-20T09:16:00.000-04:002008-03-20T09:16:00.000-04:00Maureen - so controversial. I am a huge lover of r...Maureen - so controversial. <BR/><BR/>I am a huge lover of romance novels and I love urban fantasy as long as it adds to the romance -- I don't like it as a stand alone subgenre. World-building is amazing if it brings something new to the arc of the couple - but world building for world building sake leaves me a little cold.<BR/><BR/>Now, the conflict thing. I just read an amazing article in the december RWR about what's wrong with single title contemperary romance and according to Lucia Marco (who would know about such things) the problem lies in single title's roots in category and in particular category size and style conflicts. What works in 55,000 words DOES NOT TRANSLATE to longer books -- not without making the heroine look like an idiot or the hero too stubborn to be interesting. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you Kristin - there's A LOT of conflict allowed contemp authors and I love all of it when it's done well. When it's not done well it's easy how some women would throw the book against the wall and cry anti-feminist or anti-woman. <BR/><BR/>How do you take those real life conflicts -- those subtle everyday you've got them and I've got them but we still have to make dinner and live our lives - conflicts and make them gripping - as gripping and page turning as a suspense subplot? That's the problem. ANd the challenge. I love it.Molly O'Keefehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15171236688541657736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-89871925826662119212008-03-19T23:48:00.000-04:002008-03-19T23:48:00.000-04:00I guess what I have a problem with in contemporary...I guess what I have a problem with in contemporary romance is annoying heroines. They're either too brilliant, too outspoken and bitchy or the complete opposite. Wimpy and dull.<BR/><BR/>The plots are not the problem. <BR/><BR/>I like a fantasy when I read...be it an historical romance or a paranormal one. I want to escape from what is around me, not immerse myself in it.K J Gillenwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12023089365553324315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-29059713583401036682008-03-19T20:50:00.000-04:002008-03-19T20:50:00.000-04:00Great post, Maureen. I am loving urban fantasy as ...Great post, Maureen. I am loving urban fantasy as well. <BR/>Any good romance these days. I feel like I need a Susan Elizabeth Phillips fix soon. <BR/>And am reading a really great historical, The Spymaster's Lady. <BR/>Anyone else read it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-10112559794091809702008-03-19T19:07:00.000-04:002008-03-19T19:07:00.000-04:00Also... this probably just is a matter of personal...Also... this probably just is a matter of personal preference. As I said, contemp romance is not my favorite genre, so I'm very picky and probably get angry with a lot of stories fans of the genre love.Maureen McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00494408580378817045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-4702028280996937062008-03-19T19:04:00.000-04:002008-03-19T19:04:00.000-04:00Kristin... I actually don't think it's not possibl...Kristin... I actually don't think it's not possible. Just really hard.<BR/><BR/>I admire writers who can pull off a romance without a suspense or fantasy or other type of element.<BR/><BR/>I couldn't do it... **Maureen pouts**Maureen McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00494408580378817045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29864506.post-13306072531712597172008-03-19T19:00:00.000-04:002008-03-19T19:00:00.000-04:00Hmmm, I think I have to disagree with you on this ...Hmmm, I think I have to disagree with you on this topic. I think there are plenty of ways to bring conflict to a contemporary romance. Watch any movie or television show, and they are still managing to keep viewers interest with love story conflicts. <BR/><BR/>And I don't think they insult modern women...<BR/><BR/>You can get a ton of therapy...sure...but most people don't. Unless you are royally screwed up. However, if everyone in the real world went to therapy, we probably would have all the problems we have in our society today. People still grow up in abusive homes. People still feel abandoned as a child after they go through divorce. People have terrible things happen to the ones they love: cancer, accidents, suicides. And all of these life events alter how we handle relationships. <BR/><BR/>I know women who are too driven by their work to get serious with any man until its too late. I know women who pick the absolute wrong guy every time b/c she is looking for a certain, limited 'type' of man. I know women who had a chance at love early on in their lives, but for some reason turned it down and regret it later in life.<BR/><BR/>So many things interfere with finding a lasting love...and there are plenty of ways to write about them without appearing trite or silly or less-than-feminist.K J Gillenwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12023089365553324315noreply@blogger.com